Artificially Intelligent with Sam Maule and Maia Bittner
When it comes to fintech, Sam Maule. and Maia Bittner have definitely honed a few talents over the years. They've got over a decade each in banking and payments industry, so they've earned their stripes. Now, some in the industry like to dub them fintech thought leaders- but they prefer to see themselves as perpetual fintech interns. And that's precisely why they decided to launch the Artificially Intelligent podcast - to create a platform where they can learn and look about edge cases in fintech, those hidden corners that have been ignored far too often.
So hey! Come and join us on the quest to get a little bit more Artificially Intelligent.
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Artificially Intelligent with Sam Maule and Maia Bittner
SPECIAL EPISODE: Securing the Healthcare Payment Maze PART 2: Why Healthcare Needs a Crash Course from Banking NOW!
Sam Maule and Maia Bittner have invited Boe Hartman, the CTO and co-Founder of Nomi, to pull up a chair again at our virtual table to share insights on the repercussions rippling through the healthcare payment systems, laying bare the stark financial and personal implications for providers and patients alike.
As we navigate the turbulent waters of a $4 trillion industry caught in the throes of a major claims processing shutdown, we uncover the unseen winners of this crisis and confront the startling differences in regulation when comparing healthcare to the banking sector. The conversation pivots scrutinizes the antitrust landscape and its potential effects on healthcare competition and innovation. Tune in for a thought-provoking exploration into the intertwined worlds of healthcare policy, economics, and the cutting-edge efforts by companies like Nomi to forge a more direct and efficient marketplace for us all.
Boe Hartman article: Why Healthcare Needs a Crash Course from Banking Now!
Hosts: Sam Maule & Maia Bittner
This is Essential Audio.
Speaker 2:Hey everyone, I'm Maya Bittner and I'm Sam Maul.
Speaker 1:Welcome to Artificially Intelligent brought to you by Money 2020.
Speaker 2:So on today's episode we're doing a follow-up on the change healthcare hack that happened on February 21st and is still ongoing. We're going to discuss what's unfolded over the past week, the impact from a payments perspective and how we think this is going to unfold from a regulatory perspective.
Speaker 1:This story is absolutely crazy, Maya. I missed you last week when we recorded this, but as soon as I sat down with you and we kind of caught up a little bit, this is amazing, isn't it? I mean, I really don't have another way to describe this other than the word amazing.
Speaker 2:It's so and I am still you've talked about this can't believe it's not on the front page of every newspaper I saw. It was on the front page of the Washington Post March 4th and it's being picked up, but it is having such a huge impact on a critical part of our economy and I actually, sam, I don't know if you saw this, but I tweeted about this on February 22nd and the reason I tripped over this even and I was like why is this not all over my Twitter feed? Is because, you might know, I recently had a baby and one of the things that you do when you have a baby is they're like they advise you to get the Tdap vaccine for anyone who's going to be visiting the baby, right? So grandparents and things like that make sure you're up to date.
Speaker 2:The important part of that is the P, which covers whooping cough, which is very dangerous to newborns. So I asked my mom to go get the Tdap vaccine and she went into the pharmacy and the pharmacy said sorry, there's been a huge nationwide hack that's affecting almost every pharmacy and we cannot tell you if my mom is under Medicare, if Medicare will cover this vaccine or how much it's going to cost for you. And my mom is very cost conscious and so she said I'm not going to get it, like if I don't know how much it's going to cost me, I'm not going to get it until you guys figure it out and so this is such a tiny, minor thing.
Speaker 2:It's just a tiny minor vaccine. Whooping cough is very rare anyway, but I was affected by this on day two and I tweeted about it. I was like my local pharmacy says there's a nationwide cyber attack on pharmacies and my mom can't get. Now can't is an exaggeration, but my mom doesn't want to risk having to pay the potential full retail price of a vaccine and and so she's not getting it. And then I've started to see things pick up since then. But I really feel like this should be everywhere, and I think the reason it's not everywhere is, in general, most patients are getting the care that they need, they're getting the drugs that they need, they're going to the doctor, and so, fortunately, though it's causing a lot of harm, most of the harm is not on the end customers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's going to be. Just to frame this out for those that listened to the last episode. We've asked Bo Hartman, the co-founder and CTO of Anomi, to come back on. Bo, how are you doing? You've had quite the week, and I think it was just yesterday. You were actually quoted in a piece that Axios wrote around this. You want to kind of give us a quick update on? We can talk about that piece but also kind of where we're at now.
Speaker 3:Right. So yeah, as you guys are saying, and we all agree, this is a piece that is just running under the radar Since we've talked. Last week, we are now getting policymakers who are actually coming alive on these topics. The White House had the CEO of UnitedHealthcare, who is the parent company of Change Healthcare, yesterday in DC to go over that Providers are filing for bankruptcies. Yesterday in DC to go over that Providers are filing for bankruptcies. The loan programs are being rolled out, which I think we should discuss. The money flow all around that as well, because that makes my head explode. Payments still not flowing and we're starting to get our heads wrapped around what the operational hurdle that is speeding at us that will be out there. Young companies that are alternatives to change are actually starting to get hundreds of thousands of transactions which are putting their infrastructure at stress. So it's actually really interesting unfolding and I'm starting to put some of my mind to what I think the future steps are, the steps to go forward. How do we unwind this dangerous risk to its critical infrastructure?
Speaker 1:I'll give you one quote out of the piece that you said. That I still love is that this has punched a hole in 20% of the US economy and appears at the moment no one's being held accountable.
Speaker 3:Yeah, actually, on the other map that we did, it's nearly 5% of global GDP. So think about that. Think about that for a second. And the reason why I think that folks aren't screaming yet is because it's not affecting your opportunity to go get care. But, like I said on the last session, providers are getting 0% of revenue and 100% of caseload and they're running out of money to pay their staff. So there is a timeline that is quickly approaching us to where they won't be able to pay staff. They won't be able to pay vendors.
Speaker 2:Well, I saw that is having an impact. So there's a nursing home in New Jersey that just closed down temporarily. But they said, hey, we can't pay our staff. Our staff is not going to come in if they're not getting paid. So we can't take care of people if we can't submit the claims and get paid for them. And so the nursing home right shut down. People got to be taken care of elsewhere.
Speaker 3:While this is ongoing, and just under the waterline. That's happening all over the United States and you're definitely seeing that. So, yeah, so it is fascinating. And what's interesting is these providers are owed money for care they've given and we can measure that for care they've given, and and we can measure that we can use the metrics to where a uhg can pay them, like what their normal flow would be right to, to actually make sure that these critical, critical parts of our health care and economy stay alive there's a great blog post by a doctor, jared deshetsky.
Speaker 1:I slaughtered your name. I apologize. I'm sure we can provide a link to this in the show notes. He said you got to think about this change Healthcare processes $2 trillion worth of claims each year, 2 trillion and it's literally shut down everybody. I just can't stress it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and think about that 2 trillion.
Speaker 3:It's not just the 2 trillion, it's the three and a half trillion we talked about because, just like the Visa MasterCard rails, you might not be connected to change as part of the exchange, but there's a party in that flow of that transaction. That is right.
Speaker 3:So to complete that transaction as we know it in payment and banking, you have to have a healthy, robust rail contract. So even if you are not connected to the exchange platforms, a counterparty in that flow could be, and it has stopped those as well. So you've done it. I mean, do you guys think this is a place where you talk about the other side of who gets who's making real big money right now? Well, what I?
Speaker 2:was going to ask. You know, whenever something's happening that I don't understand, right, when this is, it's going on three weeks of billions of dollars in impact, I always say, well, what are the incentives? Right, like, who's making money here, who's not making money here? When I think about so Facebook, right, also of a massive scale. If Facebook goes down, facebook stops making money, and I think that kind of lights a fire under people's asses to go fix it, you know. And so I'm curious. I mean, yeah, bo Sam, right, so change is down. Who is making money? Who is losing out in this situation?
Speaker 1:Everybody strap in for this next answer that Bo's about to give, by the way.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So if we think about the construct of money flow right in this world. So you have United Healthcare that has its subsidiary that's transacting this. As I described, people are connected to it in varying different ways to make these transactions take place. The transactions, as Maya said, aren't flowing, but companies are still paying their premiums to United Healthcare.
Speaker 3:So the premiums are still flowing into their coffers. They're also sitting on the money that already exists, that hasn't flowed out, that are sitting there, so they're making float. One of the weird things about these payers is that they're quasi shadow treasure banks.
Speaker 2:is what they are right.
Speaker 3:Because they're sitting on float and they manage float as part of that. So they're getting inflows of premiums, they're not paying claims out and they're making float, so they stand to make a massive windfall as a part of this. Now, as Sam and I were talking a bit earlier, if this was a banking situation where it was down, that money would be earmarked to pay out at a later date and the bank would be held to account of how much money that they were sitting on and how much they were making based on this event of accountability. So again, this is another place where we need to separate the care from this conversation and focus on the economic impact of this payment situation.
Speaker 2:Well, and so I mean, when you're talking about this, this is kind of the classic insurance business model, right? You get paid premiums and you don't pay out. I do think we tried to regulate this to limit the extent to which insurance companies can do this. And health insurance companies Is that gonna play into effect here? Is there? I know they have to pay out some percentage of premiums they receive, but I don't know the details of that regulation. Is there a time frame?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I mean, in this case it's fairly silent. I mean, you know again, and I think we touched on it last time and I definitely have touched it with other reporters last week and I had a very senior health reporter agree with me on this, on this aspect of this industry the regulation is very thin compared to what Sam and I experience at banking.
Speaker 3:Not even close, right, it's not even in the same ballpark. And so it's fairly silent. Because I'm not like. Ok, the premiums are the percentage of premiums that have to go. Well, they can't push them like right now, as far as they claim.
Speaker 3:But what about the float? What about the interest of that money? You know, right, like again, and it's silent on that topic. And we're talking hundreds of millions of dollars. This is not insignificant. And again, because it's so opaque and because, unlike banks, they are not required to report this in the same manner that you would inside of the banking construct, no, it's so hard to determine what it is. I mean, it's taken us three weeks and you know we're now starting to get numbers where people are actually quoting numbers, and even those numbers aren't right. You know the one person quoted, you know two trillion through change, right, but it doesn't count for the other trillion of other parts. So it is so opaque in this domain that we actually have to make it transparent so that we can make it better, so we can put good policy in place.
Speaker 1:What's even funnier, if you really want to geek out on payments and Maya Beau and myself we are payment geeks this is what we do. We know within payments that as far as how you communicate, there's ISO standards. There's standards set on payment flow for this. What is fascinating with this is that a great string on Twitter from an account, zach Cantor, talking about the impact HIPAA has Of all things. I think we're all familiar with HIPAA, but HIPAA actually set and established a standard for the electronic transactions when it comes to insurance and this money flow. You know what 99% of the insurance companies use for the flow. Who set the standard for this is change healthcare. So if you're trying to get off of change, you're looking at months worth of programmers going in and rewriting these standards because there's not a set standard for this. The industry set comes from change. This is the most circular snake eating itself thing I've ever seen in my life and if this was banking, we would all be in front of Congress right now.
Speaker 2:Well, I wanted to ask how much of a free market is it? You know, I understand that change is a clearing house. Can you choose whoever it is? I was, you know. I was talking with my friend Ellen DeSilva. She's at Summer Health and she says most of these small practices don't even pick a clearing house, it just gets bundled in with their electronic medical record system.
Speaker 3:That's a that's a hundred percent correct, right? So you go, epic, cerner, or even some of the smaller ones. They're already bounded to change and if you look at the history of what change did, change went around and they bought up all these little tiny exchanges way back when and then they became a patchwork. And we saw this in banking when banks got rid of other banks. The systems weren't integrated and they were these patchworks of connections. Again, there was no oversight or policy to give good guidance on this aspect.
Speaker 3:Cms, hhs this is kind of a weird space for them. They really are not experts in this domain. This quasi or this shadow banking industry grew up on top of it. You have the smaller ones, like waystar and alibon um, they're sending, um, they're sending contracts out to provider groups and the contract uh, the product group is sending unread lines back to them in five minutes and saying, yep, let's get on it.
Speaker 3:So you have these smaller organizations who are getting stretched way beyond their capabilities and the operational impact is going to hit them soon too. Right, because what's going to happen is they're going to get huge transaction volumes. They're going to be stressed, they're on modern architecture, but when you go from a couple hundred thousand to a couple hundred million transactions, it's a different ballgame completely, and so it is definitely not a free market. And again, the mind-blowing thing about it is definitely not a free market. And again, the mind-blowing thing about it is folks don't realize how much of a monopolistic situation creates this risk. The UK chairman letters from the 2012 NatWest collapse of technology. It actually sets a great framework to allow you to say how do you actually create good, solid infrastructure like this in an open free market. That is the UK banking ecosystem.
Speaker 2:So, and I was going to say you know tech, bring it back to Facebook, bring it back to technology. Like tech also operates at huge scale, like this right, there's so much of tech and fintech that's doing trillions of transactions and I don't know. I mean not to brag, but like I feel like we've kind of figured it out, like we know how to build resilient systems. Right, you do redundancy by default. You've got multiple databases, multiple database backups. You have your servers in different regions, use multiple banks. Svb Bit you in the ass if you weren't doing that. We've got all of the different pieces and I feel like I might have an idea what's actually happening right now at change, which is, something went down.
Speaker 1:They paid the ransom A naive perspective is everything should be back on that unconfirmed but you know that you can build it.
Speaker 2:It's like you're gonna have a set of cascading failures. It's gonna affect stuff. As they bring things online, they're gonna realize not everything is working as expected.
Speaker 1:And I really think it's like. I feel like there are a lot of lessons that could be learned from the way that tech operates at a scale like this. I mean we talked about this last week, though that we've been if you're in banking and payments, you've been through the crucible, we've been through the fire, and there's a ton of lessons that can be learned from there. When it comes to the regulatory side, when it comes to the redundancies that need to be there, right, maya, we talk about stress tests all the time with banks. If you look at the US banking system, you know it's kind of hard to argue that we're not stronger than ever Right Over here and from a, from a standard. So the lessons are all here. It's just. You know, beau, I mean, that's the question I would ask is so where do we go from here?
Speaker 1:I mean, I know there's a lot of talk going on in DC. There was a I saw on Twitter. Dan Diamond, very good reporter, said he spoke with Barry Sanders yesterday. Senator Sanders, who's a longtime critic, by the way, of UnitedHealthcare Shocking. He also sits on the Senate's health panel, by the way. He called the spiraling crisis a very important problem and told me he's considering Senate hearings. It's just a question of how we fit it in. I think they're going to fit in.
Speaker 1:I think it's safe to say yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, I was going to say Barry Sanders loved him when he was running back.
Speaker 1:Oh no, sorry, Detroit, everybody the greatest running back of all time, and we should actually do a show on that. I'm sorry, bernie, with your mittens.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's good. So about a year or so ago, I actually authored an article with just exactly what you're saying, maya, is that the health industry can actually take the lessons from banking. So, for example, when I landed in this industry, I started looking at it. This industry looks like banking from the early aughts into the early teens and then when the fintech wars took place around that 2011, 2012, 13, 14, 15, right that this industry can actually take that roadmap from the fintech banking era and learn so much. To skip to your point, skip forward and actually improve the way that I'm thinking about it right now when we're speaking to some policymakers one is Sam one let's take the lessons from banking. Two, this is an economic and national critical infrastructure topic.
Speaker 3:This is not about a doctor caring for a patient. We do that pretty well. This is about how do we actually protect and create to Maya's point, the resiliency that we already know how to do for our nationally critical processes. Right Three, we need to hold the participants who are engaged in this to a higher level. Right, we need to create the incentives to actually open this market up so that not one single model player who can be taken down with a golden BB for those of you at my age will know that reference and actually create an environment where these other players can come in, help reduce the cost, increase the efficiency and the transparency.
Speaker 3:And then, lastly, this needs to be a joint hearing between finance oversight and the healthcare oversight, because the committees that oversee health are not equipped for this topic. They just don't have the back. When I talk to them, I have to whiteboard it very basically so that they can go oh, we understand. Okay, now we see the problem, right, and so we need to actually do that. And incentives could be tax deductions for provider networks that actually do the IT investment on their EHRs to connect into multiple exchanges, right? Those are the sorts of things that we need to create.
Speaker 1:And Bo, when you and I were talking I think it was yesterday or the day before that a couple of things we want to flag. We said it on the last show. Please understand this was a government-sponsored attack. This hack was government sponsored, so you can go and read about that everybody. So that's one. So when you talk about critical infrastructure, it shows you how susceptible we are for an entire system to be taken down. Half of this is you don't want the pendulum to swing too far, right? We've all come out of banking. We all survived 2008. And what typically happens with something like this is a pendulum swings the full arc, right? So this is a chance to go in there and do this right. When we're talking from a regulatory standpoint, we're coming from a standard standpoint and the lessons coming out of banking and payments the roadmap is there for this.
Speaker 3:The roadmap's there. And then, maya and Sam, as you guys know from last time we talked, when UHG UnitedHealthcare through Optum, spent $12 billion on change healthcare $12 billion and the DOG stepped in to say let's review it for monopolistic practices and it was struck down by a federal judge, right? This is exactly what that overview would have hopefully surfaced up that we injected a massive amount of risk into the environment, right?
Speaker 2:That's what I'm saying Talking about regulation. Now, I think it's important, but it's kind of like closing the fence after the horse has escaped. Should we have just blocked this in the first place? And I think United knew how much they had to gain, which is why they defeated that's why they spent $12 billion.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 3:And people go. Well, didn't the risk exist when change was out there? Yes, but if change during that, that trans transaction, we could have had the conversations of how do we put a competition and how do we help you know, the companies, like the nomies and the elevants and everyone that are that are trying to create diversity in the market, right, yeah?
Speaker 1:let me get not to outrage everybody a little bit more. But why not A great article on prospectorg that talks about an Oregon medical practice that, again through this, basically had zero funds to operate. I mean, the doctors pulled together to be able to pay staff to keep this going. Their only option that they have was to push a sale to anybody want to guess to whom? United Healthcare.
Speaker 2:That's I was going to ask. I mean right, because it's this vertically integrated monopoly. Are they picking up these struggling they 100%.
Speaker 3:Yes, one of Optum's practices is they go in and they purchase providers that are failing. That's actually part of a playbook that they do If we could do a screenshot of Maya's face right now.
Speaker 2:I would. I mean, this is so nasty.
Speaker 1:United Healthcare comprises of 2,642 separate companies, collectively ranked at $371.6 billion. The federal government could be all over this.
Speaker 2:They're the only ones powerful enough.
Speaker 3:And if you look at Raytheon, raytheon's massive defense contractor, right, they have oversight, they have detailed oversight. And again, I'm not calling for massive regulation. To Sam's point, I'm saying good policy, right, there's good roadmap, and but as well as we also have to to create it so that uh, that these innovators can come in like like an omni health and actually uh, create a diversity that would create a quasi exchange competition like we have, that, for example, we have providers scrambling to get on these new exchanges.
Speaker 3:Right. If we would have had a contract like we have with the credit bureaus, like we talked last time, or the different payment rails that we have across the United States, all they would have to do is say, okay, we're going to increase traffic to these other channels, and the process would still be you sound like you worked in the UK, though you really do, or yeah around the globe Right. So again, I really think, and same with Maya we need to use your platform.
Speaker 3:We need to bring the thought leaders together in your audience and audience, and we need to actually say here is the plan, this is where we're going to go right, because that's what nomi's trying to do is we're trying to say like this is you know, this is a crisis, uh, and here's the plan and here's how we're approaching it, here's what we recommend, so we can actually get exchanges of ideas that we can, that we can approach the, the different committees, and we can approach the different policymakers and say this is so important, this is the things we have to go do and, to the point, you both made the roadmap's there Us bankers, we've seen it, we've been through it, we've done it.
Speaker 2:And it does feel like right. Increasing competition would help mitigate how vulnerable we are to things like this happening. It'd help reduce the risk. I saw Health and Human Services wrote a letter pleading healthcare leaders to help make it easier to switch clearinghouses and it does seem like there's been a little bit of work there. But, like Sam said, it's hard to move that type of standard quickly. But even backing up a little bit I mean, of course this is top of mind because this must be the know me mission but it's a little crazy that we need middlemen to know how much providers are going to get paid in the first place. So yeah, having more middlemen as options and a free marketplace to choose between them is a more reliable system. But part of my brain is like to choose between them is a more reliable system. But part of my brain is like, well, could we cut them out entirely? Like, do we need to rely on a middleman for our healthcare system to function?
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 3:So you know, nomi stands for no middleman, right, and some people go but hey, aren't you a middleman? No, we are about creating the efficiency of the market, of what you're talking about, right? So you know you're going to have to have third parties in the flow. Whatever it is, the problem is the market itself is just not efficient, right? The market has all these middlemen in the way. That is actually building inefficiency, because it creates their opportunity of revenue, right?
Speaker 3:So the thing we didn't talk about last time 40% of every dollar that is spent on care does not make it to the end provider and it's picked off along the way by administration organizations and that sort of stuff. And that's actually on the good side. That's the upside, right? And that 60 cents doesn't make it to the provider for like nine months, and then what will happen is someone will come back later and they'll claw it back, right? And so each of us have all our horror stories about this industry and how it's so inefficient, massively inefficient, right? And so our big mission is how do you make it efficient? Because the real cost of healthcare in the United States states is about 30 to 50 percent less right.
Speaker 1:It is mind-boggling like the only thing I can equate this to is doing your taxes right guess how much you owe?
Speaker 2:how about you tell me?
Speaker 1:I guess you know if you get it wrong you're in a lot of trouble and when it comes to health care, as as somebody who has four kids and is pushing 60 and everything else, that's that's always the fun part. Right when you're going into half procedure you're like what's it going to run me? I have no idea you have no idea We'll. We'll let you know. Yeah, it's the most amazing industry I've ever seen, yep and and so yeah, so I think this is a monument.
Speaker 3:I'm so glad you guys are giving me the opportunity to engage with your community. You know I come from this community and we really. There's opportunity for us to lead and be thought leaders, and we need to be. This is so monumentally important because we're losing providers on a daily basis. Insurance commissioners across the states are having to say, hey, how do we actually give the loan to keep a provider in place? And I'm like but there's $4 trillion flushing around this market and we know how much a provider made on a monthly by monthly basis. Why don't we actually give them that?
Speaker 2:Right, and when the reconciliation is over, right. It seems like we're so good at cash flow forecasting and we know that, right, like, loan payback rates are really high. When it's caused by something like this, which is not the fault, it's like they're still providing the things. It's almost like earned wage access, but for medical practices and for physicians, it's like we could look at what are you doing for people? We should be able to know, looking at historical records, and we should be able to lend people the money they need accordingly, but the impact to individuals' lives.
Speaker 1:I'll keep coming back to this. There's a cancer clinic in Arizona that serves 16,000 patients. That said they had three weeks worth of operating income. That's it, 16,000 individuals. So again, critical infrastructure, right. It's not that the care can't take place, it's that the back end of this, that payout not happening. So again. I'll keep saying it how this isn't front page news is backflip.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so yeah, and that's why I said, wow, this is an economic issue that we have to pound on.
Speaker 3:So yeah so that's why it's looking like, the more we get it out, it's starting to get picked up. Like I said, my calendar is starting to fill up with interviews so we can get the message out. And it's funny, all the interviews start the same, especially the health care reporters. Yeah, this is a big story. We're also shocked about how no one's really picking this up. But yeah, it's the monopoly and you can't fight them. And I said, but that's the problem, that's the problem.
Speaker 2:Right, I mean Sam was talking about its critical infrastructure. Some people would argue such critical infrastructure should maybe not be run by private corporations and it's a setup that's not really destined for success.
Speaker 3:And you know private corporations, I think the private industry has to be engaged with it. But just like the clearinghouses, right, the clearinghouses are guaranteed by the government and everybody pipes into it, right? And then that creates a market to allow the market to function.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 3:And every participant is held to a standard.
Speaker 1:And that's what we need, that we need to move in that direction, right. So I feel that that's where this message is, maya folks that have built systems that align to this so well, folks that know you know that understand payments inside and out. But unfortunately we're out of time here, maya you want to close this out?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, that does it for this week's Artificially Intelligent Podcast, though United needs to do better, I have to admit. So, personally, I actually love doing incident response, and part of me is kind of jealous.
Speaker 1:I'm serious, I love.
Speaker 2:Well, it's like being an early stage startup. Everything's on fire. I love it, so I'm a little bit jealous of the incident response team at United, though they need to pick up their game. Hey, we love hearing from listeners. Go out and give us a review, preferably five stars, wherever you listen to podcasts. This helps us grow our audience and, hey, you can reach out to us too. We love the conversations. We love the feedback. We'd love to hear your ideas for how to make this system better. The best place to find me is on Twitter. I'm at M-A-I-A-B and if you can hear Aria, my new daughter, in the background, beau, where's the best place for our listeners to engage with you?
Speaker 3:So I think engaging Nomi Health, you know, on the web, at nomihealthcom or on all socials, I think, is the right way. If folks want to interact with me, the easiest way to do it is at Twitter, at B-O-E-H-A-R-T-M-A-N, also, LinkedIn.
Speaker 1:some of the posts that we're making together and that I'm doing with others can interact there as well, excellent, well, folks, you can hit me up on LinkedIn or Twitter at Sam Maul. I want to thank everybody for listening for this incredibly important, in my opinion, episode, and I want to thank you all for listening.
Speaker 3:We'll see you next.